There are things you do for the sake of training/light sparring, ritual, or fun, and things that you use in real fights. Any intelligent person who intends to use capoeira in a fight wouldn’t be doing handstands, flips, etc, unless this person believes that movies with Jack Chan are realistic depictions of how martial arts look when applied in a real fight. For capoeira, this is pretty much some kicks, kneeling, head-butts, open-handed punches (better for the untrained hand, but I think it wouldn’t be considered “non-capoeira” if one is able to use the fists), some judo like takedowns (kanibasami, kataguruma, osotoguruma, seioi nage) and a few other things that are not dancing steps. No music, no claps, no acrobatic jumps, no dancy swinging/ginga (which is basically switching southpaw/”northpaw” stance as you move rather than keep always the same), and of course, if you’re tired, you don’t just go around jogging in circle a “around the world” with the person who is trying to beat you simply friendly complying with that.

I do not claim, however, that capoeira is awesome and the most effective martial art ever. It’s actually seldom practiced as a martial art, much more often just as a performance thing, kung-fu like acrobatics that only work in movies.

“u too can defend yourself with thousands of hours of practice and be efficient in the ways of the warrior and fight well on the street with these thousands of years old techniques”

Well technically all of the techniques whether from RBSD or TMA are thousands of years old. Nobody in our lifetime “invented” them, if anything they’ve just found new ways to perform techniques already in existence.

“Okay Nick you said that 5% of the street have broken glass. You may be right, but what happens when you are in the 5% area? What then?”

Then you keep fighting because your life depends on it. Let me ask you something. If someone randomly came up behind you and hit you full force on the back of your head and you managed not to be knocked unconscious what would you do? 1. Run 2. Fight. It doesn’t matter if your injured you have to ensure your survival first and then tend to your wounds second.

“As far as capoeira is concern, there is no way you can use that efficiently in a street fight.”

“When things go primal, it is possible but HIGHLY improbable for TMA to save your life. ”

You just admitted it is possible.

“The style is built on motion, flips, turns, cartwheels, somersaults and many other kid friendly exercises.”

The moment you said “kid friendly”, “McDojo” appeared in my head. Not all schools are like that.

“Because traditional arts main focus was the physical part and not the emotional part or even the physiological part of self defense.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAzX7dUDDfM

In all martial arts there are people who practice with the emotion and physiological part of self defense whether it be Tai Chi, Capoeira, Karate, or Kung-fu.

“When the “attacker” attacked, it would be an attack of the same style.”

At first it would matter because as a beginner and someone not experienced in fighting or martial arts you’re still learning everything. You probably won’t be able to use it to defend or fight other styles (much less your own style). When you get really far into a martial art and you experience full-speed fists and feet flying at your head every class (where a lot of RBSD is just one time seminar for most people), and you take some real hits every once in a while it doesn’t matter that your not fighting your own style as long as you are aware of what others are capable of. That is the most important thing so that you won’t be caught off guard. But you don’t need to take RBSD for that (if your school is serious about teaching self-defense they can usually supply all the teaching and experience you need). Martial arts were created as self-defense in the beginning and the only reason most people think it’s not effective is because a lot of schools sell it as a business and a sport nowadays that they’ve gone away from the traditional teachings and more harsh training methods. But that doesn’t make the martial art itself less, it only lessens the total experience of those schools.

I do agree that reality based self-defense is more practical than traditional martial arts (hence the name “reality-based”); however, part of learning the traditional martial art is drilling techniques hundreds of times every day, seven days a week, fifty-two weeks in a year, for hopefully every year for the rest of your life. With that kind of repetition drilled into ones nervous system what may be dangerous and impractical for the average Joe becomes very fast, very powerful, and effective for a seasoned martial artist.

That being said, what most reality-based self-defense experts don’t realize is that many martial arts instructors are evolving what they teach to fit the needs of society in the present. The days of a seasoned karate practitioner not knowing the basics of ground fighting and being overwhelmed by the Brazilian jiujutsu practitioner is almost gone. Likewise, include adrenal-stress training and reality-based scenario training as part of their curriculum. They teach how to use the principles of their style many traditional martial arts schools are also making the change to My conclusion over this long (maybe a little too long) response is that reality-based self-defense is the most efficient method for learning to defend yourself but “reality-based” is relative and traditional martial arts (including capoeira) can become almost just as effective (if not just as effective) with the proper training methods and much experience. and the techniques of their martial arts and apply them to real life. Of course, a lot of this is geared towards the more experience martial artist and not the beginners still learning the style.
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My conclusion over this long (maybe a little too long) response is that reality-based self-defense is the most efficient method for learning to defend yourself but “reality-based” is relative and traditional martial arts (including capoeira) can become almost just as effective (if not just as effective) with the proper training methods and much experience.
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Okay. We have 2 thoughts of Mr. Nicholas K. here and his thoughts on street fighting self defense. He had said in the last post that he understood where David started to come from and mentioned with many, many, many years of hard work, you too can defend yourself with thousands of hours of practice and be efficient in the ways of the warrior and fight well on the street with these thousands of years old techniques. As far as capoeira is concern, there is no way you can use that efficiently in a street fight. Okay Nick you said that 5% of the street have broken glass. You may be right, but what happens when you are in the 5% area? What then? That style is nice to learn in the same category as it is fun to learn gymnastics. The way you have to move your body, the rhythm, the learning of how to control all the muscle in the body, taking the body further than you would just plain kicking, rolling, spinning. As far as self preservation, it doesn’t hold a practical methods for defending yourself on the street or stairwell, car, bus, etc. I always use those areas when i talk about self defense because thats where you will be ambushed, held up. There is an advantage for the attacker and you would be at a disadvantage because you would have no where to run. There may be bits of pieces that you can actually use in a fight but very, very, very little. You mentioned that they used to use “eye gouging and other techniques that self defense experts advocate”. How? Where in that style can you use it? The style is built on motion, flips, turns, cartwheels, somersaults and many other kid friendly exercises. The style uses fluidity and fast motion to deliver their strikes, kicks, hand slaps.

Now as for traditional martial arts evolving and incorporating realistic:
*** My conclusion over this long (maybe a little too long) response is that reality-based self-defense is the most efficient method for learning to defend yourself but “reality-based” is relative and traditional martial arts (including capoeira) can become almost just as effective (if not just as effective) with the proper training methods and much experience.My conclusion over this long (maybe a little too long) response is that reality-based self-defense is the most efficient method for learning to defend yourself but “reality-based” is relative and traditional martial arts (including capoeira) can become almost just as effective (if not just as effective) with the proper training methods and much experience.
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QUESTION: What were they doing before this? Martial arts schools the world over (or maybe just America) boasted that their school taught self defense and that their techniques can make them overcome any violent attack as long as you kept coming for the next 20 years. So, traditional martial arts is NOT self defense, correct? Because traditional arts main focus was the physical part and not the emotional part or even the physiological part of self defense. The style you studied would mainly teach how to defend against someone of the same style or similar style. When the “attacker” attacked, it would be an attack of the same style. You can see that in many martial arts magazines.
Self defense and martial arts should not be separate but synonymous. They are not…by practical standards anyway. They are synonymous by general terms. Thats like saying “I WANT TO LEARN KARATE” and then someone would go to a kung-fu school to learn or say KARATE when they see some fighting in a movie not knowing what they were watching but were thoroughly entertained by the flashy movements and strikes. Guys I work with say they used to watch KARATE movies growing up and actually they were watching a lot of the SHAW BROTHERS movies (as we should all know they were the pioneers-I think- of the kung-fu cinema).
If we all had the steel nerves like we see in the movies and had our ready stance sure we can use traditional arts and kick the bad guys ass but thats not the world we live in and will certainly not work in the neighborhood I live in (I live in an area where gangs are on the rise and much needed police presence is needed). You have to honestly ask yourself – CAN I USE THIS IN AN ELEVATOR WITH 2 ATTACKERS? Most practitioners think 1 guy attacks or that 1 will attack and the other will wait and then the other will attack once the 1st guy has been defeated.
Its true what you said about guns:
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Even today in the age of guns it doesn’t change the fact that “obsolete” weaponry can still do the job they were originally created for. It’s just modern weapons can do the job better. The same could be said for martial arts because the traditional martial arts hasn’t changed and the people themselves (biologically) hasn’t changed, so the traditional martial arts can still work; however, for the modern day and age it would be much more practical and realistic for people to learn RBSD.
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Remember, those are projectile weapons so anything that can be flung from a range of 20 yards or better can still be effective. From bow & arrows to crossbows they still have a place in weaponry today for hunting whether for sport (not a fan of) or food.

i fell if you want to practice TMA for the historical aspects of it (you mentioned this) and a bit of the cultural yes do it, it is fun. For self preservation when you’re life is in immediate danger, I wouldn’t. Is my opinion law? No. But to my belief I wouldn’t and I make my opinion on claims and reports according to FBI, LE,CORRECTIONS. When things go primal, it is possible but HIGHLY improbable for TMA to save your life. Look on youtube and see what fights are about. It doesn’t get any better than that.

With the bronze age weapons were created that could pierce human bodies and new armor was created that could withstand the weapons of the day. But bronze was a relatively soft metal that made it somewhat impractical and when iron forging was invented almost a thousand years later these new technologically advanced weapons quickly overcame the less technologically-advanced weapons.

According to the program I watched (I wouldn’t know) they said some special forces still use crossbows today (I assume because of its silence capabilities). Even today in the age of guns it doesn’t change the fact that “obsolete” weaponry can still do the job they were originally created for. It’s just modern weapons can do the job better. The same could be said for martial arts because the traditional martial arts hasn’t changed and the people themselves (biologically) hasn’t changed, so the traditional martial arts can still work; however, for the modern day and age it would be much more practical and realistic for people to learn RBSD.

Personally I will continue to study traditional martial arts for many reasons. Including the discipline they give me, the physical fitness, and the enjoyment of it, the historic culture, and basic fighting abilities. But even as a traditional martial artist I acknowledge your ideas, and even though I may not agree with everything 100 percent, I agree that there is indeed a newer and more practical method out there, and by acknowledging this I can hopefully come to learn more about it to train myself and others to become stronger. Thank you very much for your insight and opinions and I hope I have not caused you too much trouble.

I agree that combat is evolving all the time but then so are the martial arts. The martial arts were never intended to be created as a set-in-stone method. For instance there is an often misunderstood practice in karate called kata. It is a self practice drill used to drill the techniques of the style into nervous system with many thousands of repetitions of practice. But one thing most people do not realize while watching this dance-like pattern is that almost every self-defense technique (done unarmed) is in the kata. As a way to combat karate from becoming a dead martial art the founders came up with the idea of systemized movements each with the capability of being used infinite different applications. In fact many different methods of arm-bars, joint-locks, chokes, eye gouges, kicks, punches, strikes, throws, sweeps, takedowns, takedown defenses, weapon disarms .etc can be found in karate kata. There is nothing new under the martial arts sun because the body can only move so many different ways and newer methods are only different ways of applying the same techniques that have been around for many hundreds (if not thousands) of years.

The topic started with “street fighting” (personally I wouldn’t want to punch a street because it would probably hurt) I won’t really be touching on soldiers having to fight with their packs on. Like I said before the human body hasn’t changed at all over the last one-thousand years. We have guns now that can kill you in one shot but then many weapons in the past could also kill someone in one hit so that isn’t all that different. The principle of seizing initiative and ending your target before they get the change to end you is the same as it has been since the beginning of fighting history. Your method of achieving that is anything that you can make work for you whether it be RBSD or martial arts, or a gun.

It is true that the urban turf has broken glass lying around and if you apply pressure to it with your flesh then it will most likely penetrate your skin causing bleeding, lacerations, and possibly infection. But what many people fail to mention is that broken glass covers less than five percent of all urban turf. Jagged rocks in the rural turf are almost just as common. Part of learning a martial art is learning to control your body and being aware of your surroundings. The way people fight hasn’t changed all that much.

I do agree that reality based self-defense is more practical than traditional martial arts (hence the name “reality-based”); however, part of learning the traditional martial art is drilling techniques hundreds of times every day, seven days a week, fifty-two weeks in a year, for hopefully every year for the rest of your life. With that kind of repetition drilled into ones nervous system what may be dangerous and impractical for the average Joe becomes very fast, very powerful, and effective for a seasoned martial artist.

That being said, what most reality-based self-defense experts don’t realize is that many martial arts instructors are evolving what they teach to fit the needs of society in the present. The days of a seasoned karate practitioner not knowing the basics of ground fighting and being overwhelmed by the Brazilian jiujutsu practitioner is almost gone. Likewise, many traditional martial arts schools are also making the change to include adrenal-stress training and reality-based scenario training as part of their curriculum. They teach how to use the principles of their style and the techniques of their martial arts and apply them to real life. Of course, a lot of this is geared towards the more experience martial artist and not the beginners still learning the style.

“A samurai would not be found on a modern battlefield, as the scope of warefare has made such techniques and weapons opsoltet”

Quite frankly most martial arts today are not even found on the battlefield not even military martial arts. The vast majority of conflicts are won with technology not hand-to-hand combat. One of my favorite sayings is that “a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick”. It is not so much the technique itself (as many modern reality-basic self-defense techniques were based off those of traditional martial arts) or the style as it is the method of training and applying it that makes it count in the end.

My conclusion over this long (maybe a little too long) response is that reality-based self-defense is the most efficient method for learning to defend yourself but “reality-based” is relative and traditional martial arts (including capoeira) can become almost just as effective (if not just as effective) with the proper training methods and much experience.

Sandy beacher offered a cushion for the hand while doing these handstand kicks, gravel, broken glass etc are on the urban turf and will cut the hands.
The face of combat changes and so must the techniques we use to engage in the same.

A samurai would not be found on a modern battlefield, as the scope of warefare has made such techniques and weapons opsoltet. Mind you, I am a practitioner of 31 years in traditional Japanese arts, plus 15 years reality based fighting and over 10 years nhb/mma.
Each is useful for something, and something CAN be learned from each…it is how it is virewed and applied that will make or break.

I admire your erudite assessment of the art, however I must remain in my opinion.

I admire your analysis on the art of capoeria. I am of my opinion that it is unsuited for reality vased street defense or for military combatives because:
1: The flipping, flying movements place the practitioner at at sever disadvantage against a handgun. When the capoeria practitioner is doing his high flying act, a gun can be pull, and he will be shot. Stay on your feet and you have more mobility and a tactical advantage by being able to see a weapon brought into play as well as engage and relieve your attacker of their weapon
2: while, yes you are correct , that capoeria was created orginally as a way of combat disguised as dance, combat evolves. The way people fough in Africa, Japan, th Phillipines or even the United States, 50, 100, 150 or more years ago has changed drastically. Would a soldier be able to preform a handstand kick or other high flyer kick while wearing full gear and an heavy alice pack, how about a police officer , ok how about Joe Regularguy. Maybe he can, BUT environmental circumstance make such movements impractical and dangerous.

“Capoeria is great EXERCISE, might be very fun to do…but it is NOT fighting.”

I do agree with you that flack doesn’t win fights and that you must immediately engage and neutralize the threat, but that can also be achieve through using martial arts. Not all martial artists dance around and take stupid poses when they get into a real fight. I’ve seen a guy win a streetfight with a tornado kick.

Granted RBSD can teach you effective self-defense in only a day while martial arts may take you as long as 10 years, but to say that capoeira cannot work in self-defense is fiction. It was created for that very purpose and has been used in self-defense. It worked 100 years ago and still works today.

Martial arts teach more than just exercise. It teaches discipline, respect (which a lot of RBSD don’t teach), it permeates your everday life and creates happier people while RBSD is just a skill you use, it is a lifestyle, and lastly it can also be used for self-defense.

That video was from an MMA movie and capoeira can work in the ring too, here’s a clip from a REAL MMA fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6oiADjOdFg

Like I said in the beginning RBSD is really good for people who just want to learn to defend themselves and true martial arts may take 10+ years to really get it to the point where you are truly comfortable with yourself. But it can be used nonetheless. Most people who say otherwise only say that because they never stuck with it long enough to feel comfortable with THEMSELVES. You have to find what works for you and it doesn’t really matter if it’s kicking, grappling, boxing, or RBSD. If you practice long enough and get enough experience to start seeing things clearly you’ll be able to apply the principles of your martial art to whatever you need to do at the instance.